Commemorating the end of "Decadence" broadcast, Director Yuzuru Tachikawa & Producer Takuya Kadoki talk about the truth of the world! The reason why the Decadance Cannon is a physical attack and the relationship between Cabragi and Minato are revealed!

The original TV animation "Decadence" has been gaining popularity with its innovative world view of cyborgs and humans, the drama of their intertwined feelings, the power of the huge mobile fortress, and the superb action. The other day, the twelfth and final episode was broadcast, and many of you may have been thrilled by the last exciting episode.

Akiba Research Institute interviewed director Yuzuru Tachikawa and producer Takuya Kadoki, the creators of the work. We asked them about the many mysteries and behind-the-scenes stories that can only be told now that all the episodes have been completed, as well as the truth behind some of the minor points that bothered them while watching the show. (From left to right: Producer Takuya Kadoki, Director Yuzuru Tachikawa)

Cyborgs are made to look cool by "lying

--The last part of the show was very hot. Was this something you had in mind from the beginning?

Tachikawa: We had a common understanding that we wanted to create "entertainment on the high road," so once the plot was finalized by the several main members, it was in a form similar to what we have now. During the production process, there were a few ideas that would gut the heart at the end, such as the story of the pipe becoming a giant gadol and attacking as a "symbol of sacrifice," but we wanted to make sure the story had a solid ending rather than one that would leave viewers with a hazy feeling in their hearts. The connection of Cabragi to Decadance was also a part of our initial idea, as we felt that we wanted Cabragi to be the one to make the final move.

--I was very excited to see everyone rallying and Cabraghi connecting to Decadence. Did you see the reaction of the audience, including that?

Tachikawa: Yes, I did. I tried to check as much as possible to see if it was received as intended.

--Personally, when I saw the first half of the first episode, I thought, "So this is the worldview of the work," but by the end of the first episode, I was like, "What is this? and in the second episode, I was even more confused, "What? and then in the second episode, I was even more confused.

Kadoki: I thought people would still enjoy the adventure atmosphere of the first episode, so the most exciting thing for me as a producer was to see if the worldview in the second episode would really be accepted. I wondered how many people I would have to sift through. However, the director had told me that he wanted to make the worldview a little more complex, even if we were going to do a royal entertainment, and I agreed to do so. ......

So when I saw people on Twitter and elsewhere saying that the first episode was interesting, I felt a sense of insecurity. I was thinking, "This is going to end up like that in the second episode" (laughs).

Tachikawa: That's right. In the first episode, the story is pretty much the same one that has been used in anime. Monsters attack and people are trapped inside (decadence). So I was curious to see how the people who were saying negatively, "It's a setting we've seen somewhere before," would react when they saw the second episode. I was worried about how much they would accept the reversal, but it was also a feeling I had not experienced before.

--The worldview that was revealed in the first episode is a contrasting one, with the cyborg side being more deformed and the coloring more contrasting. What was your intention in doing so?

Tachikawa: In my mind, I wanted to work together on a single animation with a completely different worldview, picture design, and character modeling. The most important thing I had in mind was that I did not want to create a work that would make people feel sad and depressed just because a monster (Gadol) was attacking them.

I was also of the opinion that if the cyborgs, who treat the humans in the tanks as commodities, had the same design as the humans, they would not be accepted. I wanted to create a position where the world is dominated by pop and cute characters. I tried to create this kind of worldview by merging the necessity of the work with what I wanted to do.

Kadoki: The world on the elemental side has a lot of action, so maybe you could consider adjusting the labor and cost aspects between that and the cyborg side? I had thought about that, but it didn't happen. The cyborg design has clear characteristics, but because of the simplicity of the design, it requires skill to present it as a three-dimensional object, so I don't think the staff's work was easy. Also, since there are two world views, the settings are twice as large. It took a lot of time to prepare.

--Did you have any special techniques or ideas to make the cyborgs look cool, such as the duel scene between Cabragui and Donatello at the correctional facility?

Tachikawa: Even if we included close-ups of the cyborgs' faces to make them look cool, I think it would be less powerful than putting pressure on their bare faces. However, cyborgs are quite deformed and "easy to lie" in design, so for example, if Donatello's hands were in the foreground, they would be drawn very large. It's one of the great things about anime to be able to lie like that, and by lying, we are able to bluff our way through.

--The way you show it is different from the coolness of the battle between Gear and Gadol, where you make full use of the sense of levitation.

Tachikawa: This may not be a general opinion, but I think it takes more sense to make the action on the cyborg side look cool. With human fights, it is easy to imagine because of the accumulation of previous works, and I think there are many people who can draw them. However, I don't think there are that many people who can draw super cool action scenes based on "Doraemon" designs, for example. I think a certain sense of style is necessary.

Natsume is a "stupid child" and a "symbolic existence.

--I would like to ask you about the things that bothered you while you were watching the show. First of all, as a premise, humans do not exist on this world earth except in decadence, right?

Tachikawa: That's right. Maybe there are people living as a community in some kind of huge underground shelter, but in the setting, it is assumed that they do not exist.

--Kadoki-That is to say, if you really close Decadence and erase the entire space, there will be no human beings left?

Kadoki: We would become extinct.

Tachikawa: Basically, all the endangered species of humans would be gathered in that space.

Kadoki However, it seems that although we were an endangered species, there are a relatively large number of us now. So if you ask me if we are really on the verge of extinction, I don't think so.

-Certainly, there were descriptions like, "We want to thin out the population because there are more and more of them. And these humans were identified by the presence or absence of a chip, but when and when will the chips be implanted? I don't think they are farmed somewhere.

Kadoki: They are usually born from the mother's body.

Tachikawa: The doctors are all on the side of Solid Quake Company. They are pretending to be tankers, but they are cyborgs inside, and they are taking out the children as doctors.

Kadoki: There was some discussion about this during the production of the film, and I think that some children are born without a doctor in such a devastated world. I wondered what would happen to such children. I didn't follow up on that much as a setting, but in that sense, I left room for the idea that Natsume may not be the only bug that is similar to Natsume.

-Speaking of such a worldview, I was also surprised by the "reversal of ideas" where the real world is the setting of the game. How did you come up with this idea? What were your references?

Kadoki: I did not use "Westworld" as a reference, but after I created the setting, I thought it was very similar to "Westworld.

(*Ed. note: "Westworld" ...... is a sci-fi drama that started in 2016. (*Ed. note: "Westworld" is a sci-fi drama that started in 2016, set in a theme park that recreates cities from different eras where androids live, and tells the story of androids who rebel and humans who come as guests).

Tachikawa: I know it looks like "Mobile City/Mortal Engines," in which a huge city eats its way through the city! (*editor's note: "Mobile Cities" is a story about people who come to Japan.

(*Ed. note: "Mobile Cities/Mortal Engines" ......2018 film released in 2018. (*Note: "Mobile Cities: Mortal Engines" is a post-apocalypse film depicting the struggle between mobile cities wandering around in search of resources in a world ravaged by war.)

Kadoki: It has become. （Some people have speculated (on the Internet, etc.) that I may have used it as a reference, but I had already made "Decadence" before "Mobile Cities/Mortal Engines" was released, so to be honest, I didn't use it as a reference (laughs). But I thought it was interesting that a work was created overseas with this kind of thinking.

Tachikawa: Another movie that was often mentioned was "Sugar Rush. I myself like that movie. The back side of the game is like the real world, and all the characters from the game come together to create a drama. The atmosphere is totally different, but I use that kind of atmosphere as a reference. Also, I was shocked when I saw "The Matrix" when I was in junior high school, so I think my impression of it was probably influenced by that time.

--I think that impression probably had an influence on me.

Tachikawa: That's right. For example, I think that if there were another piece of work, I could precisely depict the detailed setting of the tank's life in the city and so on. Like being planted with a chip and then dying a cruel death because of the lack of a chip. There would be a lot of things like sudden deaths because they are controlled, and the inhabitants of the tank would be thinking, "How can people die so easily? But that would be tragic (laughs).

--(Laughs.) - If we had wanted to, we could have made it tragic and serious. That's what you were saying earlier about not wanting to make the work tragic. In that sense, the character of Natsume can be quite comical, and I felt that it was well-balanced.

Tachikawa: Natsume is, to put it another way, an "idiotic child" or a little out of touch with reality. She seems to be going forward and accepting things immediately. On the other hand, she is not just an idiot; she is a realistic girl with a weak side. She is a very broad character.

I wanted Natsume to be very symbolic. Even when she is called a bug, she pushes forward and acts when she thinks of something. Her facial expression also changes from one moment to the next. If Natsume had not had the will to go that far and stopped, I would have portrayed the negative aspects of the tank town in a more realistic way. To avoid such a situation, I made Natsume blow it up and move forward.

Kadoki: Originally, the story was about the main character, Cabragi. There were so many elements of Cabragi that there was a proposal to start the work with a monologue by Cabragi. During the production process, the "Natsume" element increased more and more, and now it has the feel of a "double hero," but at first it was treated as "Cabragi: the hero, Natsume: the heroine. Because of this, I have depicted changes in Natsume's feelings in a natural way as an element of the work, but I don't think I have included much detail on the emotional conflicts.

What is the relationship between Cabragi and Minato ......?

--In the middle of the film, Cabragi is sent to a correctional facility, and the impression of the world or the atmosphere of the characters changes drastically. Was there anything in particular you were conscious of when creating this area?

Tachikawa: This was something I was looking forward to from the beginning. In the previous episodes, the camera was often placed on the tanker side, or rather, on the body side. Even if it was the cyborg side, there were many scenes inside the solid quake. Episode 6 is a different place, an underground prison with dangerous people. Here, it is acceptable to have some outlandish movements and strange design elements, so the creators felt that they had come to a place where they could play.

--The main cyborgs are designed to reflect their personalities, but there are many other cyborgs with unique designs. Is there one among them that you are personally interested in?

Tachikawa: There are many different kinds. For example, there is one that does the same thing by banging its body against a wall, and at the end of the game, a light suddenly comes on and illuminates the surroundings. If a guy has an interesting design and seems easy to move around, I put him on the screen every now and then if there is an opening where he can play an active role.

Kadoki: I don't think many people realize it, but among the designs that Mr. Oshiyama drew for us, there is one that is amazing. He looks like the last boss of a game (laughs). He appeared for a moment and then did not appear again, but among many cute designs, he alone radiates a sense of disaster, and his design is strangely different from the others.

Looking back at Mr. Oshiyama's first design, there are some parts that I wish I could have made more use of in the main story. I hope to be able to show them in some way in the setting material collection. It is quite interesting to look at the changes in design and see how Kaburagi's design looked like at first. It is quite interesting.

Tachikawa: In the beginning, it looked like a banana. The head was super long and bright yellow.

Kadoki: To be precise, the first cabragi had a longer body than now, but then we put a yellow one in between, and it became the cabragi of today.

Tachikawa: It looked like a tropical fruit.

Kadoki: In the beginning, Minato's arms were a bit more streamlined and futuristic. There were quite a few little changes to the current version in that way.

--I'm sure many of you are wondering about Minato, so I'll ask you straight. What is the actual relationship between Minato and Cabragi?

Kadoki: The director drew a gag on Twitter, saying "Minato holds Cabragi's horns every day, and I think they are getting shorter and shorter.

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--Kakunori: But there was nothing "special" about their relationship from the production standpoint.

Kadoki: That was going a little too far (laughs).

Tachikawa: Simply, "Cabragi is on the battlefield and Minato is the commander," and I think this trusting relationship must have developed over the years. There is no specific episode in which Cabragi saved Minato from a crisis. But Minato is very much in love with Cabragi. Normally, he would just say, "I can't follow you anymore," and stop being involved with him, but he feels something that prevents him from doing so. But he feels something that he can't. But Cabragi hardly feels it.

--But Cabragui hardly feels it. They said, "If it were Minato-san, he would do it.

Kadoki: Everyone felt that Minato's feelings for Cabragi were a bit too much, but they didn't dare to go into it (laughs). However, Decadence is a game that has been in service for hundreds of years, and if you look at it from the perspective of the generation that preceded the Cabraghis, it has been around for a thousand or so years. It has been around for a very long time, so maybe it's different from the emotions of people living in a limited time.

Tachikawa: Two or three hundred years ago would be the Edo period.

Kadoki: Perhaps we are now in version 2 of Decadence, and the cyborgs probably don't know how the first cyborg was born. Even in the stories passed down by humans, there are lies mixed in.

Tachikawa: The tankers were taught a false history, which they read in one episode.

--I was totally fooled by it. ......

Tachikawa: That kind of thing has been handed down for hundreds of years, and that's how they are believed.

It had been a punch, so I wanted to stab it with something sharp!

--In the second half, Natsume also learns the truth about the world and the true identity of Gadol. And a new Gadol (Gadol Omega) is born in the form of a human parasite. So this Gadol did not disappear because it did not have a chip, right?

Kadoki: That's right. Because there was no chip in it.

-The fact that the pipe was also said to be like a bug due to the problem of the target of the attack, etc., and yet it disappeared is ultimately the difference between having a chip and not having a chip, isn't it?

Kadoki: The pipe had a chip in it at one point. There was a scene at the end of episode 3 where the pipe disappeared and you tracked its movements. That means there is a chip in it.

Tachikawa: This ties in with what I said earlier, but in the case of humans, I think they can have children on their own without being noticed, but gadols have no reproductive function, so they have no choice but to be produced in a factory. Therefore, it is impossible for there to be no chips, and we are aware that all gadols have chips.

--the gadol Omega, which should be called the raspberry. What kind of image did you want it to have?

Tachikawa: Basically, all gadols are designed and created by pop cyborgs, so we asked them to create a monster with a cute shape that cyborgs would think of. The base is somewhat cute, in a way that is similar to the cyborgs in some ways. However, we deviated a bit from that, especially with Gadre Omega, and had him take on a malicious shape and look ferocious.

Kadoki: If you look closely, you can see that there are buildings in the arms. In the film, Omega is only depicted as consuming its body parts for nourishment, but in reality, it absorbs other things besides its body parts. I wondered if perhaps even rocks and such are absorbed and broken down to make their own cells.

-It was certainly impressive that he had a building on his arm. And to counter that, at the end, not "Decadence" but "Cub Dance" logged in by Kaburagi appeared. This flow was also really hot.

Tachikawa: (Decadance and Cabragi) are going to get together, I thought (laughs).

--The tome is of course the "Decadence Cannon. Normal punches didn't work on Gadre Omega, so how did you come up with the idea of attacking with punches in the first place?

Kadoki: That was one goo at first. On the image board, there is a picture of a goo attacking like a hammer, but Shu-san (Hirotaka Shu of Decadence Design) came up with the design. After several drafts, we finally came up with the current design.

Tachikawa: Decadence is often seen in a close-up before it is transformed, so I asked him to make the silhouette stand up. So I came up with the idea of having the hand like a crown that transforms when it punches. We had talked about how we wanted to punch him, so I guess we were like, "Okay, then let's put our hands together!" I guess it was like that (laughs).

-- although a certain brave king did cross my mind when I saw him holding both hands and launching them as if he was rushing forward. ......

Kadoki: I don't think the director knows that because he doesn't watch robot movies (laughs).

--(laughs) - I didn't realize that! I had imagined that the passionate development was in your blood as a lover of robot movies.

Kadoki: Actually, that's right. I'm a bit of a robot lover, so when I saw the storyboards for episode 12, there was a scene that I knew I had to do.

--I was sure that if you like "Gundam," you must have thought of that scene.

Kadoki When I mentioned it to the director, he said, "What's that? He said, "What's that? I know he hasn't seen "Gundam," so I told him that if he hadn't seen it and came to this point, he would have said .......

Tachikawa: Originally, I was wondering what the hell Natsume was supposed to do in the final battle between the giant gadol and the decadence. I had a story to tell. It was difficult because there was so little to do. So we decided to have Natsume do something like collecting the parts that Decadence is collecting together.

--The end result is like a drill, and the feeling of excitement is great! and the sense of excitement was amazing.

Kadoki: I'm glad you feel that way.

Tachikawa: In a way, it is a "spear. I have been simply punching until now, so I wanted to stab with something sharp (laughs).

Kadoki: Simple thinking (laughs).

--I was wondering about one more thing: The small gadol pulls out the oxon and makes it bleed to death. But the decadence cannon is a super physical attack, right? Is there a reason for that?

Tachikawa: If I were a player in that world, I thought it would be better for the show if I could see the body being blown away by a "huge impact punch" up close, rather than bleeding to death. So I thought, "No, you're going to punch him! or "I thought there was going to be a laser beam," I thought that was how it was supposed to be (laughs). This is really just the energy of a punch. It's like blowing them away with power.

Kadoki: From the standpoint of physical calculations, it's probably a bit strange (laughs).

Tachikawa: Also, it was mentioned at the beginning of the production that humans eat gadols as meat, so if a large gadol were left to bleed to death, how many years could it live (laughs)?

--(laughs) - so there would be no need to defeat the gadol.

Tachikawa: There was talk of that. Well, for my part, I wanted to just pop him right off the bat! (laughs).

Kadoki As I said, I haven't explained it clearly, but without Gadol, they can't live and Decadence can't move. In the end, they live in symbiosis with Gadol.

Tachikawa: If one side of the designed world is missing, the other side cannot exist either.

Kadoki: In the beginning, there was talk that there was not so much food other than gadol, and in response, there would be people who would argue that we should live more naturally. But it was hard to include it in the drama between Kaburagi and Natsume, and I wanted the story to be about two people changing the world based on their feelings, not because of the way the world is set up, so I had to cut all of that out.

--Tatekawa: There is no end to the things we are interested in, but do you have any plans for the future?

Tachikawa: For now, I'm going to make manga about things that I wanted to include but didn't have time to, and post them on the Internet (Twitter).

Kadoki: That's already a gag comic (laughs).

Tachikawa: I wanted to have a punchline in a one-page comic (laughs).

Kadoki: Besides that, if the manga becomes popular, there will probably be a continuation, and I would like to publish it in various forms, such as novels and comic book adaptations. Anime has to be explained within a certain length and the number of episodes has to be established, so there are various aspects that cannot be done in anime, depending on the medium. I hope to see it spread through various media in this way.

--I am looking forward to it. Thank you very much!

(Interview, text, and photos by Kenichi Chiba)