TCG is still a growing genre! Bushiroad Chairman Takaaki Kitani vs.

Trading card games (hereinafter referred to as "TCG") are one of the hobbies that have been greatly affected by the recent self-restraint due to the new coronavirus, because they are often played in person.

Under such circumstances, the TCG store chain "Harukeya" has announced a major policy of opening 100 stores specializing in "Magic the Gathering" in 47 prefectures in Japan. Harukeya focuses on "Magic the Gathering" and has opened tournament centers with 300 (!) seats in Tokyo and Osaka. The company has opened tournament centers with 300 seats (!) in Tokyo and Osaka, and is one of the most active TCG stores in Japan today.

Tomoharu Saito-san, the president of Haruelya, is a top Magic the Gathering player, and old TCG gamers might recognize him as a high school prodigy who won "The Finals" a few months after he started playing Magic in 1999. Saito-san founded Harukeya in 2009, and after retiring as a competitive player in 2019, he has been actively running Harukeya and YouTubing under the name "Tomohappy".

We overheard that Bushiroad Chairman Takaaki Kitani was interested in President Saito, so we asked him to set up an interview with him on short notice. Chairman Kitani is a man of great ambition who has established two publicly traded companies, Broccoli and Bushiroad, and launched domestically produced TCGs such as "Weiss Schwarz" and "Vanguard.

In this long interview, we will share some of the words exchanged between the up-and-coming young manager and the legendary executive in the trading card game industry.

TCG is a genre where first-mover advantage is great!

─ ─ I have the impression that since your retirement as a competitive player of "Magic the Gathering" at the end of 2019, Saito-san has been focusing even more on business and information dissemination. What is your image of Chairman Kitani as a manager in the trading card game industry?

Saito: I believe that the TCG industry in Japan is what it is today because of Mr. Kitani. I am honored to have this opportunity to talk with him today, and I respect him as a senior member of the industry. What impressed me personally is that when I used to play "Dimension Zero" TCG as a player, Mr. Kitani, who was the head of the TCG at that time, came to the award ceremony and said, "Oh, wow!　Mr. Kitani is here! Everyone was so excited. He has been such a driving force in the industry since the early days of domestic TCGs. Looking at him now, I am amazed that he saw the potential of TCGs so quickly and placed bets on them.

Kitani I think that most people in the TCG industry started out with "Magic the Gathering," but my case was different. At first, I hit upon the commercial opportunity of trading cards for collection purposes, and I decided to get the copyright! I started from there. I received a proposal for a bishojo card game that was not yet available in Japan, and that was the start of the "Aquarian Age" project.

─ ─ I think "Dimension Zero," whose name was mentioned earlier, was also a very big epoch in terms of being the first domestically produced card game with a prize system.

Kitani: When we decided to try a prize-based title, we consulted with our lawyers and used "Magic the Gathering" as a reference for the management system. The game system is completely different, though.

Saito: It is very difficult to offer prize money for tournaments in Japan, isn't it? (*Mainly because of the gambling laws, professional contracts are required.)

Kiya That's right. But at the time of "Dimension Zero", I still didn't really understand the temperament of Japanese card game players. I thought that many players were looking for strength and competition, but in reality, many were looking for community and communication. In reality, many of them were looking for community and communication. So "Dimension Zero" was exciting at first, but players who realized that they were not that strong stayed away from competitive tournaments.

Saito: The prize system was really revolutionary, so competitive players of various TCGs gathered at "Dimension Zero" at that time. I think there was a phenomenon that light players left the competition as a result of the competition among the top players of various TCGs.

─ ─ Since the Internet was not yet developed, I think there was an aspect that information (what kind of cards, construction, and strategies were advantageous in that environment) was monopolized by the community of strong players.

Saito: You are absolutely right. It was a game where not only deck construction but also playing made a big difference. Of course there was an element of luck, but the percentage was much lower than in other TCG titles.

Kitani: In the days when the Internet was not developed, there were people who won with decks that you would never have thought of. Looking at our current card game world tournaments, Japanese players tend to follow the right path and use similar decks. In world tournaments, overseas players are more original, and it is difficult for Japanese players to win.

─ Known decks are easy to countermeasure, aren't they? I have the image of Saito-san actively disclosing deck recipes, etc., at a time when information tended to be monopolized by the community of strong players.

Saito: That's right. When I made a good deck, I posted it on my personal blog and shared it with others. In this age of various deck recipes being published, it's great for card stores to see interesting and attractive decks (because it stimulates the desire to buy cards). However, too much information can take away from the fun of the card game, which is to think and build your own deck, so there are two sides to this.

Kitani This is not limited to deck building, but I feel that the habit of thinking for oneself is fading because information is too readily available. The truth is that it is fun to think for yourself and hone your skills when building a deck or playing a card game, and I think that the competition is fun because you compete with the results of your thinking. But if you just look it up, it will come up, and in some cases it will come up as a recommendation even if you don't look it up.

Saito: That's right. I think this makes it easier to play.

─ ─ Even though they are new TCGs that can be enjoyed casually, "Weiss Schwarz" and "Vanguard" have been around for more than 10 years since their first release.

Kitani The other day, on the Tomo Happy channel on YouTube (where President Saito appears), you posted a video about the difficulty in getting new trading cards (games) out.

Saito Thank you for checking it out!

Kitani The TCG industry has too much first-mover advantage.

Saito I really agree with that.

Kiya I think the reason for this is related to two assets. One is the card assets that each user has. The other asset is the memories of playing the game. The memories of going to various tournaments and playing with friends are assets that cannot be converted into money. Once you have these assets, you can't easily throw them away, and I think that the longer you have been playing, the more difficult it becomes to start again with zero assets for a new title. For example, in the U.S., the top three games, Magic the Gathering, Pokémon Card Game, and Yu-Gi-Oh, have remained almost unchanged over the past 20 years. In Japan, the current top three in monthly sales are "Yu-Gi-Oh," "Pokémon Card Game," and "Duel Masters," although there has been some turnover. I don't think there is any other genre where a particular title has been strong for 20 years.

─ I think that in a business type like Harukeya, you are looking for new TCG fans, and at the same time, veteran players who need old cards are also important customers.

Saito: New card packs of "Magic the Gathering" are released every year, but there are regulations not only for playing with the latest cards, but also for using cards from a wide range of eras (powerful cards from each era), so I think this game also takes care of players who have been playing for a long time I think it is a game that takes care of players who have been playing for a long time. So it is definitely an industry that includes the logistics of old cards.

─ Earlier, you mentioned that "Dimension Zero" may have lacked some long-term spread due to the information gap between strong players and light players. I would like to ask you about the TCGs that you released after Bushiroad was established.

KITANI: When I quit my previous company (BROCCOLI) after 13 years, I thought that card games still had a lot of potential. If it weren't for card games, I don't think I would be in the entertainment industry.

Saito Is that as far as you have come?

Kitani When I became independent in 2007, the history of TCGs was only about 14 years in the world. I thought it was still a new industry and that the possibilities had not yet been explored, so I launched "Weiss Schwarz" in March 2008. Without the experience of "Dimension Zero," I don't think "Weiss Schwarz" would have been possible.

─ Were there any points where you were able to make use of your experience with "Dimension Zero"?

Kiya When I asked Satoshi Nakamura of Youhodo to create the game system, I asked him to make it so that even beginners could win once in a while, and that even if they didn't win, they could still feel that it was a close call. So with "Weiss Schwarz", as damage accumulates and the level goes up, strong cards can be played.

Saito So it is a game structure that makes it easy to have a nice game.

Kitani I want the game to be as close as possible. If the game is close, people will want to play again. That is why I wanted the balance to be more like professional wrestling than mixed martial arts, or like mahjong in a game. I want there to be room for reversals.

─ That is a slightly different stance from "Magic the Gathering," which is more competition-oriented.

Saito: Yes, the fundamentals of the "Magic the Gathering" system, which came out at the dawn of TCGs, will never change, so one of Magic's weaknesses may be that it is too broad for everyone to enjoy. The depth aspect, which can be enjoyed for many years, is great, but it may be technical at best, or minutiae at worst. It's a game where you make a difference little by little, and it's hard to make a big turnaround.

Kitani I think the difference in gameplay between "Weiss Schwarz" or "Vanguard" and "Magic the Gathering" is similar to the relationship between Mahjong and Go Shogi.

I see...that analogy fits very well.

Kiya I think Mahjong has a great game balance.

Saito I think so too!

Kitani When I launched "Weiss Schwarz", I said "It's a game of luck". Some people might have thought, "What a game of luck," but I think there were people who thought they might be able to win too.

I dare to open the store because it is now! What Haruuya is aiming for

─ ─ Since we have the heads of both the manufacturer and the store talking to us this time, I would like to talk about the store as well. Haruwaya has opened tournament centers in Tokyo and Osaka with a 300-seat playing area. That's a scale that is hard to imagine elsewhere.

Kitani That's right. However, since Haruwaya's success, I feel that other chains are trying to imitate them. In terms of stores, many were started by individual TCG enthusiasts at first, and then hobby stores like Yesabu (Yellow Submarine) emerged. Recently, the strongest stores are those that originally dealt in (consumer) games, such as DRAGONSTAR, and those that already have POS systems and single-item management systems are strong. While existing stores are being pushed out by these chains, there are two stores with different colors. One is CardLab, which is an anime store type store, so it is strong in character goods. The other is Saito-san's Harukeya.

Saito Thank you very much.

Kitani Even though we are a specialty store focusing on "Magic the Gathering," we have the advantage of being a large store. Usually, specialty stores tend to start small (laughs).

Saito: We started small at first, too, from a mail-order business at home.

Kitani But when you opened the store, you saw the advantages of a large-scale store, didn't you?

Saito Yes, we opened a store in Takadanobaba as a tournament center eight years ago. Eight years ago, many people said, "300 seats, no way! But in my mind, I thought we had a 90% chance of winning.

Kitani I think the general trend was the opposite. There was a view that having a space to play against each other was making it less efficient as a business.

─ ─ If you think about it by the standards of other hobby and hobby stores, TCG play space and tournament entry fees are incredibly reasonable.

Saito: Yes, many stores are basically free and open to the public. Even if they charge a tournament entry fee, considering the cost of space, judges' fees, and the time and effort required for various applications, I think basically all of them operate at a loss for the playspace alone. I have also thought about stores that only sell and buy cards. For example, I thought it would be profitable to have a store in the middle of Akihabara or Ikebukuro that specialized in Magic and only sold and bought cards. But that just looked like a way to make money, and I wasn't excited about it. From a medium- to long-term perspective, it is a business that cannot be established unless the overall business is in good shape, and people just come to the store because it is inexpensive. After all, the starting point of the store was my love of card games, so I decided to start .......

─ ─ We needed a play space as a place where people can enjoy themselves.

Saito: I want people to have a special experience at the store. That's why we built a 300-seat store at first, and next we wanted to build a 1,800-seat store if possible. However, tenants like that are hard to come by (laughs), so we are now accelerating the nationwide expansion of our stores.

KITANI: Dragon Star also started out only selling cards in Osaka, and then switched to providing large-scale play space. I think they realized it.

Saito: (DragonStar's) first store and second store have completely different lines of business.

───Harukeya is aggressively opening new stores at a time when the impact of the new coronavirus has had a great impact, and it is generally considered to be a headwind for actual stores.

Saito: Regarding the tournament center in Osaka, we had already decided to open a store there, and we ended up bumping into it (laughs). We have been consciously opening new stores since then. The reason is that people and tenants are coming out (to the market) more than before, so I thought that moving now would help the card game industry. Of course it's tough to attract customers at the stores, but we are in a situation where we are able to endure because our mail order sales are doing well because of that. I feel that there is strength in this industry and that it will continue to grow, which is why I believe that now is the time to win.

─ ─ I was a little surprised to hear that you think that now is the time to compete because the cost of acquiring stores, etc., is decreasing in a situation that includes Corona. It seems to me that this is quite similar to what you have been saying about advertising and publicity.

Kiya I think Saito-san's way of thinking is very correct. If you study when everyone else is studying, you will not be effective because everyone else's scores will go up. If you move when everyone around you is having a hard time moving, when you win, the return is very large. Even tenants will get good properties, right?

Saito: Yes, I really feel that good properties are becoming easier to acquire. I feel that increasing the number of stores will boost that card game and have a positive impact on business, even at the current 12 stores. So, while building on our multiple Magic specialty stores, I would like to expand into other TCG titles that we have not been able to contribute to so far, such as Harukeya 2 (Pokémon card specialty store in Akihabara), Harukeya 3, and 4. How much we can expand to other titles depends on how well Haru-Ru-Ya 2 does.

Kitani You think it will go well?

Saito Yes, I think it will go well (laughs).

─ ─ As a place to enjoy card games, Harukeya has recently opened a new type of restaurant called "Yumeteruya.

Saito: We opened a restaurant called "MTG BAR Yumeteruya" in Takadanobaba. I think card games used to be a very deep hobby. But now it has become a tool to play with friends in a lighthearted way, and I think it can be integrated into various scenes. If we can accelerate this trend and make it more enjoyable in various ways for various people, I think card games have the potential to be played by many more people.

Kitani I think this is a very interesting experiment. We also have a kitchen car at the "Vanguard" event, the Vanga Festival. We want to make it more like a festival than a card game tournament. Some people enjoy playing against each other, others shop for their collections, and some just want to have something to eat after lunch. I don't think there is a TCG that can be played in such a variety of ways.

Saito It is very accessible and has the aspect of art at hand, doesn't it?

Kitani I think the reason why the market for smartphone games has grown so large is because people originally had the concept of paying to own pictures in TCGs.

I want to boost the TCG industry with "Dimension Zero!

Kitani How much are the sales (of the Harukeya Group) now?

Saito This is just a provisional figure, but the last fiscal year was about 4 billion yen.

Kitani That's amazing. I think we are one of the top card game store chains. If we can break through the 5 billion yen barrier, I think we can go all the way up to 10 billion yen.

Saito: I want to do my best. I think this is a genre that will continue to grow through the efforts of everyone involved in the card game industry, including manufacturers, stores, wholesalers, and users.

Kitani If the pie is really large, there will be room for new players to enter the market. The current TCG market is about 100 billion yen, but if it becomes 200 billion yen, even 1/100th of that is 2 billion yen, so I think it will become much easier to establish new titles, If we can sell 1 billion yen, we can support the company. (When the market matures) You could do the "Dimension Zero" again, which you are talking about.

Saito: (Leaning forward) I am eagerly awaiting that!　I wasn't sure if I should say it here, but "Dimension Zero" is still the TCG title that I talk about the most. I was a Magic the Gathering fan, but it was Dimension Zero that made me change my mind from liking Magic the Gathering to liking card games. It was fun, but I understand why it didn't do well, so I think it would be very exciting to revive it while rearranging that part of the game.

Kitani At that time, I think the market was about 30 to 40 billion yen. Now the market has tripled, so if we do it right, I think we can achieve annual sales of about 500 million. I think we need some wisdom on how to develop the original TCG from there.

Saito: I would love to have a chance to talk about "Dimension Zero" (laughs).

Kitani I would like to think about how to adapt it to the current era. But is it okay to end the interview by talking about "Dimension Zero"? (laugh).

─ ─ If there is some movement toward "Dimension Zero" in the future, it would be a historical story, and I think it would be good! Finally, please give us your impressions of today and a few words about the future of the trading card game industry.

Saito: I had a lot to talk about, or rather, I was able to hear many wonderful things. I was exposed to the words and aura of a great senior, and I myself became more and more motivated. I would like to start doing my best to help boost the trading card game industry starting tomorrow!

Kitani I think it is really wonderful that Harukeya, which has been in business for 11 years and was the last of the chain stores to be established, is developing on this scale and with this character. It is rare for a store with a player background to do so well, and I think it is a balance of love for card games and an eye for seeing business as business. There are many single stores overseas, so I think they will truly become the world's number one card store chain. If you are going to be on the side of releasing card games in the future, why not try "Dimension Zero" as a first step (laughs)?　Bushiroad as a TCG maker is having a hard time breaking into the top three. But there was a month eight years ago when "Vanguard" was ranked No. 1. Believing in the possibilities, we will do our best as a card game maker, and we will also do our best to develop card games into a market that more people can enjoy.

─ ─ Thank you very much.

(Reporting and writing by Kiri Nakazato)