Interview with S.M.A. about "The Rumble Fish 2," the first port in 17 years - an ambitious work that incorporates the latest technology of the time, including a learning function for S.M.A. and AI.

The Rumble Fish 2, a fighting game that gained popularity in the arcades, will be released on December 8, 2022 for PS5, PS 4, Nintendo Switch, Xbox Series X/S, Xbox One, and PC (Steam) platforms. Known for its sharp system, it is a favorite of fighting game fans.

The main features of this title are "visual expression that conveys pain" and "tactics using two types of gauges for offense and defense.

When a character is hit by an attack, "parts crash" (so-called "part destruction") occurs, such as tearing clothing or removing sunglasses. Characters fight while being torn to pieces. The pain of fighting in martial arts is palpable.

Another deep feature of the game is the existence of two gauges, offensive and defensive. There is an "offense gauge," which accumulates with offensive actions, and a "defense gauge," which accumulates over time. Each gauge is used for offensive "offensive arts" and defensive "defensive arts," respectively.

The unique tactical game of "Offensive Arts" allows the player to deal massive damage when the opportunity presents itself, and "Defensive Arts" allow the player to fight back when attacked, making for a unique experience unlike any other fighting game.

The Rumble Fish 2" is being ported to consumer hardware for the first time in 17 years since its release in 2005, and we spoke with the game's producer, Seigo Ito, and main programmer, Yoshiyuki Tanaka, about the reasons behind the port and the development of the original version.

Yoshiyuki Tanaka, main programmer of "The Rumble Fish 2" (photo at left) and producer Seigo Ito (photo at right)

--Please give us your kind regards. Please tell us a lot about "The Rumble Fish" series.

Ito: My name is Ito, and I was the producer on the development side of "The Rumble Fish 2.

Tanaka: My name is Tanaka, and I was the main programmer for "The Rumble Fish 2," working on the battle system.

--The arcade version of "The Rumble Fish 2" was released in 2005, and this is the first port to consumer hardware in 17 years. Could you tell us about how this port got started?

Ito: We were surprised that it took so long for us to port the game. We had been approached by 3goo about a port for some time, but we couldn't make a move and couldn't find a company willing to take charge of the port. This time, 3goo helped us find a good company, which was a direct result of that.

--You had talked about porting before, but for various reasons it had not been realized.

Ito: There had always been talk within the company about porting the game and wanting to do a sequel, "The Rumble Fish 3," but the conditions and timing just didn't seem to fit.

--The original version was developed in 2004 for Sammy's ATOMISWAVE arcade system, and in 2012, it was adjusted for the NESiCAxLive arcade download service. The Rumble Fish 2 for NESiCAxLive" was distributed. Which one is being ported this time?

Tanaka: "~for NESiCAxLive".

--What were the circumstances that originally led you to start "The Rumble Fish" series? You mentioned earlier that you wanted to make a sequel. Is it a series that you are deeply attached to since it is a fighting game based on your original IP?

Ito: I am deeply attached to it. I originally started out making fighting games for a major manufacturer. After moving to Dimps, I heard that Sammy was going to release a new system called "ATOMISWAVE," and I saw this as a chance to start a new fighting game, so I created "The Rumble Fish" series.
Even though we were launching a new fighting game, the fighting game industry at that time was in a state where it was difficult to gain popularity by creating a normal fighting game, because the "dominant" titles had a firm grip on the users. We were thinking that we needed a new way to showcase our games, and Tanaka suggested the "Smooth Model Animation (S.M.A.)" system. S.M.A. is a method where the human body is divided into parts such as arms, torso, and head, and these parts are combined to move the body. Since each part can be individually redrawn, we thought it would be possible to create interesting expressions such as the destruction of parts, such as the tearing of a piece of clothing.
The Rumble Fish" is the result of our desire to create a new fighting game.

--I think it was a very unique expression of the game. When you hit a fighter in the torso, his clothes would tear, or when you gave him a leaping kick to the head, his eyes would change and he would reveal his true nature. ...... I felt that this system contributed to both the fun of playing the game and the expression of the character. At the time, people were playing not only to win, but also to destroy as many parts of the game as possible to win.

Tanaka: The concept that came from the main planners at the time was "fighters who continue to fight even after being injured. We decided to use S.M.A. to express this concept in ATOMISWAVE. At that time, the power of expression of 3D graphics had improved to such an extent that it was a different story a year later. Because of this, ATOMISWAVE's 3D graphics were not superior to the most advanced systems of the time. Therefore, rather than making a 3D fighting game, we decided that a 2D fighting game using S.M.A. would be better. ......

-The "The Rumble Fish" series reminds us how well parts destruction and fighting games work together. Why are there not many fighting games that feature parts destruction?

Ito: Up until now, if you wanted to do part destruction on a 2D game board, you would have to prepare a full body image for after the destruction, so it was not an expression that was easy to do in terms of capacity. However, with S.M.A., which combines 2D and 3D, you can simply switch the texture (*) of the damaged parts.

*Note: A kind of "skin" or wrapping paper that covers a 3D part. For example, if you have a cylinder and cover it with a bark (texture) with a wooden pattern, the cylinder will look like a tree. If the same cylinder is covered with a texture of steel, it will look like a steel bar.

In this case, the hands, feet, and other parts are usually covered with "unbroken" skins, and when the parts are destroyed, the skins can be switched to "torn" skins. With the conventional method, if the clothes are torn, a new full-body drawing must be prepared. With S.M.A., however, the skin (texture) only needs to be changed for the torn part of the clothing, which is more efficient. S.M.A. that combines 2D and 3D" means that the screen of "The Rumble Fish" looks like a 2D picture, but in reality, it is made by combining parts of 3D polygonal plates to create a 2D-like picture.

Tanaka The designer had to draw everything before and after the damage separately, so he had quite a hard time.

--I see. So that was the reason why there are not many works featuring part destruction.

Ito: Thanks to the challenge, we were able to express ourselves in a new way, and after the game was released, we received many requests for a ported version, so now I am glad we did it.

--Did S.M.A. have any influence on your character design? For example, did you decide to "create a design that makes use of the expression of part destruction"?

Ito: It wasn't like that. For example, "Hikari" and "Kaya" are wearing hakama, and I remember thinking, "What should I do with hakama and part destruction?

Tanaka: Throughout the series, there were various people who came up with original designs for the characters, and they varied from those who made the characters in the style of 2D fighting games to those who emphasized the destruction of parts. The latter was the idea of YUKINARI Z, who is in charge of the design, as a "woman in a kimono wearing a goldfish bowl. When the head breaks parts, the fishbowl breaks (laughs). (Laughs.) She is a heavy smoker, and the fact that she has many kissers stuck in her goldfish bowl had a strong impact, but unfortunately, the design was rejected because it was ...... unless we could see her face when she appeared on the screen.

-It feels like a totally acceptable design. I hope to see it return in the sequel. What was the reaction after you released The Rumble Fish?

From left to right: Collector's Edition and Standard Edition for Nintendo Switch; Standard Edition and Collector's Edition for PlayStation 4. The Collector's Edition also comes with a port of the previous title, The Rumble Fish. The garnet figure on the far right is the personal belonging of Di Costanzo Nicola, president of publisher 3goo, and is from when "The Rumble Fish" was released. The port of "The Rumble Fish 2" was made possible by Mr. Nicola's love call.

Ito: I had the impression that we couldn't keep up with the fighting games that were popular at the time. Because it was a newer title, there were only 10 characters, whereas other fighting games in the series had 20 to 30 characters. Also, players who wanted to play against each other had difficulty finding opponents, while those who wanted to practice against COMs would barge in on them, as is typical with new games.
However, the response from players improved over time, as the two gauges and many other options available during battles made it a challenging game that could be played for a long time, so I think the game gradually caught on. When I play 3goo's port of the game now, I find it interesting once again (laughs).

Tanaka This port of the game can be played over the Internet, so I can't wait to play it myself (laughs).

--Was the production of "The Rumble Fish 2" decided at an early stage?

Ito: It was decided fairly early on. We wanted to increase the number of characters. However, S.M.A. is a system that expresses the good points of 2D and requires knowledge of 3D, so there were not many people who could produce it. In fact, we wanted to create more characters.

Tanaka: We have tried to make use of the lessons learned from "The Rumble Fish" to attract the gallery's attention. This is because, as you get used to the game, the battles tended to be more subdued, without "offensive arts". We have therefore increased the number of "Offensive Gauge" and "Defensive Gauge" stocks and adjusted how they are used to make the battles more flashy, using "Offensive Arts" as well. We have also increased the number of action options, such as "Ground Recovery" after moving and getting up, and "High Air Dodge" to avoid attacks in the air, so that players do not get stuck in a "deadlock" situation where they cannot do anything in the battle.

--It has been pointed out that the power of "Offensive Arts" is drastically reduced when they are included in a combo. We renovated this point and made it so that the number of "Offensive Arts" can be increased to three, so that the flashy "Offensive Arts" can be performed more and more, and have practicality as firepower.

Tanaka Actually, the S.M.A. drawing system itself was also redesigned from the development tools for "~2.

-From a layman's point of view, the sequel gives the impression that you are adding to the original work, but that is not the case, and a great deal of work went into it.

Tanaka: Actually, "The Rumble Fish 2" has an AI learning function implemented. This is useful both during development and actual play. During development, we let the AI play matches with other AI players and let it learn efficient moves through reinforcement learning (*), and the planners made final adjustments to each character's action patterns.

(*)Note: Reinforcement learning...... is a system in which AI is rewarded according to its efficiency when it acts, and AI will take actions that will yield higher rewards (i.e., more efficient).

--Automatic test play by AI is currently attracting attention in game development, but you were working on such efforts in the early 2000s, weren't you?

Tanaka Specifically, actions that inflict more damage on the opponent and actions that cause less damage to the AI are evaluated. It is primitive compared to today's AI, but we were able to improve efficiency quite a bit.

--Actions that inflict more damage and have less risk to themselves are rated higher and will be used again in the next match. If damage is the evaluation criterion, it seems to me that the character's movements are likely to be optimized and uniform. How do you express the character's "personality," or rather, the character's unique fighting style and movement habits?

Tanaka: We use what we call "supervised learning," in which we teach the AI combos that are unique to the character in advance, and then let the AI play matches to reinforce learning. This is one of the difficulties of using AI in games, but the planners make the final adjustments because a strong AI does not necessarily mean an interesting game. It is a hybrid of craftsmanship and AI, so to speak.

--I see. So, the AI is refined through battles with other AIs, starting from a state where the character has its own personality.

Tanaka: The AI is also used in actual play. It learns the combos that players often aim for and tries to turn them around.

--If the AI learns, won't it become invincible if you keep playing the game?

Tanaka: Learning results are discarded after one game, so the AI does not become infinitely strong.

The opponent changes from one game to another, but the learning results are shared with ......, but there is a backstory that "the player must have studied the game by watching the player's game being broadcasted.

-in a sense, it's realistic. You mentioned earlier that you would like to do "The Rumble Fish 3". Depending on how well this ported version is received, can we expect a sequel?

Ito: We would like to do it, and if there is a chance, we would say, "By all means! If there is a chance, I would love to do it. Will you continue the numbering and call it "The Rumble Fish 3"? I don't know if we will continue with the numbering and call it "The Rumble Fish 3," or if we will pursue a method of expression that is possible only now.

--I am looking forward to it. Finally, could you give a message to those who are playing "The Rumble Fish 2" for the first time with this port, and what character would you recommend?

Tanaka: At first glance, the game looks difficult because it has two gauges. 3goo will be releasing a video for beginners, so please check it out as well. The collector's edition includes a port of "The Rumble Fish" and a package with a new drawing by YUKINARI・Z, so I hope you will pick one up.

I would recommend "Alan" to those who are playing for the first time. He has many easy-to-use special moves and has a strong lateral attack. Kaya" also has a fast gauge that builds up quickly, so it's a good way to learn how to use the "offense gauge.

Ito: Some of you may not be familiar with the original arcade version, but I hope you will enjoy playing this game and feel the atmosphere of the exciting battles that took place back then. There is a network battle mode that uses rollback codes and a training mode that allows you to set various conditions, so I think it will be easy for newcomers to play. I recommend "Garnet. She is a cute character who only uses footwork.

--Thank you very much for your time.